Shenmue Saturn + Sega Systems Talk

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Thank you Mr Sega, I found out more about the Jupiter :

"The Saturn was the second console designed during SEGA's "Planet Projects." The other two consoles designed were the SEGA Jupiter which became the 32X and the SEGA Neptune which was canceled before any working prototypes were finished. "

"History
[edit] Development
The Sega 32X allows the user to play 32-bit games on the Mega Drive, such as Doom

On January 8, 1994, Hayao Nakayama, then CEO of Sega, ordered his company to make a 32-bit cartridge based console that would be in stores by Christmas 1994. This would at first be named "Project Jupiter", but after Sega found CD technology cheaper, they decided to modify it instead of dropping the cartridge project (that would be called "Project Saturn"). Hideki Sato and some other Sega of Japan engineers came over to collaborate about the project with Sega of America's Joe Miller. The first idea was a new Mega Drive/Genesis with more colors and a 32-bit processor. And so, this project was codenamed Project Mars, and Sega of America was going to shape the project.

The 32X was primarily envisioned as a system which would extend the life of the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis and provide revenue while the installed userbase of the Sega Saturn slowly grew."

This article makes it seem Jupiter, Neptune and 32x (Mars) were BASICALLY, SORT OF, IN A WAY, the same thing. Different ideas though, Jupiter was supposed be enhanced standalone system (like Neptune EXCEPT maybe not backwards compatible with genesis, that is why Neptune seemed so kool at time) while Mars was as a add on and released as 32x. Which was both a good and bad idea.

The non cartridge 32 bit version became the Saturn.

The cartridge 32 bit ones was were Jupiter (cartidrige Saturn like 32x), then Mars (32x) was released as a add on but Neptune (genesis + 32x) was canceled after Mars (32x). They should have just released it. But so many people found out how to make their own, it's actually very easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_32X

So the cdx is the Pluto I guess, j/k LOL, oh no that was Game Gear, no no no I got it it was the Nomad LOL. (Don't explain what the cdx, gg, nomad was was please, I had 2 of each for over a decade and loved the cdx, in fact I was one of first people to tell people online the 32x and power base DOES WORK in cdx.) IMO the cdx was so much better as a design than jvc wondermega.

Check this out proof of Saturn Cart/CD prototypes :





"Jupiter was a project which used the same components than Saturn, but using cartdridges instead of discs to store games. It's believed that the decision of using a CD-Rom unit was taken after the first presentation of Play Station...

Whatever which were the reason, Jupiter could be defined as a Saturn without CD-Rom unit (and some minor hardware changes) There're also more projects like Pluto or Eclipse, but they're just experiments from the past.

The Jupiter was SOA's counterpart to the Saturn project. It was intended to be a 32 bit cartridge based system. After Sega found CD technology to be cheaper, they decided to modify the Jupiter instead of scrapping it. SOA's Joe Miller felt gamers wouldn't buy an improved version of the Megadrive, so it was decided to make the new project an add on to the Megadrive instead of an entirely new console. This became the 32X and was code named Mars. At this time, SOA was unaware of the Saturn project until Project Mars was well underway."

This post describes the "genesis" (pun intended) of Sega shooting themselves in foot. Spread out way too thin with all these released and unreleased machines. Then releasing Saturn early with not a great 3d chip but great 2d chip, non complete launch VF game then having to release a VF Remix to make up for their own mess up, no released 32x or saturn (esp !) sonic staring game...made it all go down hill faster and faster until dc revived them for a little bit, but the damage they done and ps2 announcement and no dvd player in dc (who cares now about that LOL) doomed them. Everyone was right, Sega did it to themselves.

I remember being such a Sega fan and ignorant to all this info I was telling others "Your just a Sega hater ! The Genesis, sega cd, 32x, saturn were cool systems" but after reading how stupid Sega management handled the overuse of projects and not communicating with each other etc, and how spread out they became with sega products or licenses, it's clear Sega definitely killed themselves more than anybody killed them in hardware market.

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

However Mr Sega, can you tell me if it's true the sound card in Genesis model 2 is even worse than model 1 ? (LOL if so yuck) If so, I will not attempt this :

http://longhornengineer.com/diy/neptunehowto/

[CD AGES]

can you tell me if it's true the sound card in Genesis model 2 is even worse than model 1

Well this is simple one. Model 2 and 3 got nothing on the model 1 Genesis! The latter provides true Stereo sound right out the box!

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Ok thank you Age, I remember loving my model one versions (genesis, sega cd) and plugging headphones in stereo jack of genesis.

But I heard the model one uses jvc stereo chip and model 2 a crappy mono sony chip. I just want to be sure, before I make my Neptune what model I should definitely use graphic (no rainbow) and sound wise. I don't want a crappier sound chip (model 2) sounding more horrible than the even then outdated crappy sounds of a model 1 to begin with. I want to use best equipment for my Neptune project.

I consider the Sega approved Genesis 3 a joke or knock off like the millions of non Sega ones. It didn't support anything like power base, 32x, sega cd, ha it's crap.

[Jenkins]

Oh man... this thing (without the MEGACD and 32X ever released) would have been the KILLER system! A backwards compatible Saturn... with a nice 3D hardware architecture and advanced SDK available...


oh, sorry, please go on.

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Yeah Jenkins, I'm not sure if that "Saturn" was able to play 32 bit carts and be backwards compatible with 16 bit Sega cd's, or if it was backwards compatible with genesis carts and use 32 bit saturn cd's and 32 bit carts ha apparently Sega was confused on all this too.

Hey we just released the sega cd and it is accepted, way to go teams ! Yes cd's are the future ! So scrap our pc add ons and cancel the contract with ibm, cd's are our future !

Hey let's make a model 1 32 bit cart system, the hell with cd's, we will name it Jupiter and release it in 1994 ! It can be the successor to our only successful console, the genesis/mega drive ! The hell with cd's we are going back to carts for the future !

Hey nobody likes model 1, let's use model 2, and instead call it Mars ! Scrap or just implement other Jupiter stuff for the Mars ! Yes carts !

Hey you know what, the hell with carts, let's license the wondermega to jvc since they created our horrible genesis model 1 sound chip then release the cdx which can play both carts and games just like the wondermega !

Hey we just released the Mars as the 32x but people are complaining !

Hey so let's release the 32 bit cart and 32 bit cd and possibly backwards compatible Saturn !

Hey so let's just release our 32x and genesis combo named the Neptune 48 hours before the cart/cd Japan Saturn releases !

Hey nevermind Japan launched the cd only Saturn, scrap the Neptune !

Hey why don't we keep pumping out Sega mags and still support the master system in regions, make a nomad and support everything at once !

Hey nobody trusts us no more let's make a Dreamcast, scrap Saturn !

Hey instead of dvd, let's create a new format, known as gd-rom ! It won't host movies, but hey nobody cares about that it's about the games !

Hey everyone loves the Dreamcast and we redeemed ourselves, the PS2 is coming with a dvd player, so cancel everything we're going 3rd party ! Was this ride dizzy for both consumers and developers, Yes !

[Jenkins]

hehe, no one really knows... but I would be awesome!

[stu]

I think Jupiter and Mars are actually quite different, Jupiter was projected to be the same basic chipset as the Saturn, just minus the CD drive and the CD-Rom cache memory. Mars was a joint development between the hardware teams of SOA and SOJ and was set up at the request of SOJ CEO Hayao Nakayama.

Another thing, I believe MrSega is incorrect on his assertion that Mars/32X was somehow based off the Model 1 arcade system and Saturn was based off of the Model 2 arcade system.
Model 1 was a much more rudimentary design compared to Model 2 and was incapable of texture mapping, it utilized a single CPU (an NEC v60 running at 16MHz) and a single Graphics Co-Processor/FPU (an Fujitsu TGP MB86233 rated at 16MFLOPS), compare that to the Mars/32X system which featured the same dual Hitachi SH2 CPU setup as the Saturn (32X's CPUs were downclocked from 28MHz to 23 MHz) and totally different in house developed video processor, which was capable of texture mapping.

As for Model 2 and Saturn, again the chipsets are totally different, again Model 2 features a single CPU (this time an Intel I960 rated at 25MHz) and a single Graphics Co-Processor/FPU (an Fujitsu TGP MB86234 rated at 16MFLOPS).

As you know the Saturn featured twin CPUs (Hitachi SH2s running at 28Mhz) and twin VDPs (VDP1 and VDP2, both custom designed by Sega), in fact the only similarity between the Saturn and Model 2 is that they both use Quadrilatrals as their 3D primitive, as opposed to Triangles and both support texture mapping, the Saturn was capable of both the traditional 2d sprite based graphics and the more complicated 3D polygon graphics, Model 2 however was purely a 3D polygon based system.


One last thing, according to System16.com the Model 1 arcade system was never meant to go in to production, in fact the first game, Virtua Racing was being developed as an experimental game allowing AM2 to develop experience in designing 3D games, but thanks to the success of the game internally at Sega they decided to release the game.


Sources for Model 1 and Model 2 specs:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=712

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=713

I've posted this before in another thread over in the Speculation section, I closely followed the launches of both 32X and the Saturn and never once saw any mention that these consoles were somehow based off of the arcade systems mentioned, they were designed by different teams.

If someone does have an old magazine scan indicating that the 32x and Saturn were based off of Model 1 and Model 2 then I would certainly be interested to see it.

Thanks

[MrSega]

@djvectorman. Your welcome.

Though some of that information regarding Jupiter isn't entirely accurate.

Mars,Jupiter,Saturn were all developed during 1993. By early 1994, Saturn had already been finalized and Sega of Japan took the Jupiter chipset and planned on licensing it for the overseas markets for 1994. Like I mentioned, Saturn's worldwide release was set for 1995. Jupiter and Saturn are not the same build. Jupiter is Model 1 based, Saturn is low res Model 2 based. SOJ had always envisioned Saturn to launch in the Fall of 1994.

Saturn also almost had a Cartridge design that was immediately scrapped after the chipset change.

http://www.trademarkia.com/segasaturn-74469937.html




As for the mess behind 32X/Mars, the unreleased Jupiter and amazing Saturn. Well back in 1993-1994, SEGA was a double minded company. Each division was divided. SEGA of Japan did one thing, Sega of America did another. SOJ was ready to move on from the 16-bit market. SOA saw it as their cash cow and were willing to milk it for all that it was worth. 32X was just an overall awful idea. It was bad enough SOA designed it without SOJ's permission, but the fact that it was designed without its OWN processor when Sega CD used its own its the icing on the cake. Jupiter SHOULD have seen the light of day. American consumers wouldn't have minded the idea of Genesis Backwards Compatibility


Couple the civil war at SEGA during the CSK years with SEGA's biggest moneymaker: Arcades seeing its revenue nosedive, the hiring of a Sony employee and the worsening management at Sega of America and the large SEGA fanbase that begin to flock to Playstation in the latter 1990s 1996-1997, its not hard to see why SEGA went down in the late 1990s.


As Sega continues to re-organize into Sega Orbi, these lessons that they learned during the 1990s, have obviously been a wakeup call for them. I'm confident, Sega Orbi won't make the same mistakes that CSK made.


Its also worth noting, that SEGA's biggest contender Sony is in serious financial trouble right now. Vita is selling poorly, SCEI has lost more than $25 billion over a 10 year period. Each year, Sony has lost $1 billion on budget shortfalls for PS3 plus the $10 billion in R&D that had been spent developing the thing in 1999-2005.

But the biggest wound for Sony is their core brands. Sony Electronics are selling very poorly. The overall revenue of Sony has fallen all the way down from $32 billion in 2001-2002 to $2 billion in 2010-2011. This year alone, Sony is predicting even bigger losses and its Operating Losses continue to double. In the R&D department, Sony only has $6 billion left to spend for the company's core divisions, and just $2 billion left for SCEI.

Playstation's empire is crumbling, and we SEGA fans can find solace in the fact that Sony's console days are numbered. They can't take another year of giant losses and Sony fanboys can spin and dream about a PS4 as many times as they want, but any sane person following Sony's finances can see that Playstation 4 would SPEED up Sony leaving the console market and cause them to go bankrupt very quickly.

So to the Sony fanboys claiming there's a PS4 and are claiming that this would somehow turn things around for them, good. I hope there is one, so they can go bankrupt quickly and leave the hardware business faster than you can say Playstation 2. That way SEGA as they continue to see black can leap right back in.

[MrSega]

I think Jupiter and Mars are actually quite different, Jupiter was projected to be the same basic chipset as the Saturn, just minus the CD drive and the CD-Rom cache memory. Mars was a joint development between the hardware teams of SOA and SOJ and was set up at the request of SOJ CEO Hayao Nakayama.

Another thing, I believe MrSega is incorrect on his assertion that Mars/32X was somehow based off the Model 1 arcade system and Saturn was based off of the Model 2 arcade system.
Model 1 was a much more rudimentary design compared to Model 2 and was incapable of texture mapping, it utilized a single CPU (an NEC v60 running at 16MHz) and a single Graphics Co-Processor/FPU (an Fujitsu TGP MB86233 rated at 16MFLOPS), compare that to the Mars/32X system which featured the same dual Hitachi SH2 CPU setup as the Saturn (32X's CPUs were downclocked from 28MHz to 23 MHz) and totally different in house developed video processor, which was capable of texture mapping.

As for Model 2 and Saturn, again the chipsets are totally different, again Model 2 features a single CPU (this time an Intel I960 rated at 25MHz) and a single Graphics Co-Processor/FPU (an Fujitsu TGP MB86234 rated at 16MFLOPS).

As you know the Saturn featured twin CPUs (Hitachi SH2s running at 28Mhz) and twin VDPs (VDP1 and VDP2, both custom designed by Sega), in fact the only similarity between the Saturn and Model 2 is that they both use Quadrilatrals as their 3D primitive, as opposed to Triangles and both support texture mapping, the Saturn was capable of both the traditional 2d sprite based graphics and the more complicated 3D polygon graphics, Model 2 however was purely a 3D polygon based system.


One last thing, according to System16.com the Model 1 arcade system was never meant to go in to production, in fact the first game, Virtua Racing was being developed as an experimental game allowing AM2 to develop experience in designing 3D games, but thanks to the success of the game internally at Sega they decided to release the game.


Sources for Model 1 and Model 2 specs:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=712

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=713

I've posted this before in another thread over in the Speculation section, I closely followed the launches of both 32X and the Saturn and never once saw any mention that these consoles were somehow based off of the arcade systems mentioned, they were designed by different teams.

If someone does have an old magazine scan indicating that the 32x and Saturn were based off of Model 1 and Model 2 then I would certainly be interested to see it.

Thanks

Model 2 is a PC arcade board. Saturn's CPUs is a modified version of it and its VDPs are a off-the-shelf built of its 3D Fujistu TGP Graphic Proccessor. They basically are a lower Resolution and divided variant built of the same Lockheed Martin 3D technology.

The difference is in configuration. This was the early 1990s. PC based console hardware was unheard of. Of course Model 2 would be different from Saturn, because Model 2 was designed for Arcade markets. SEGA's first arcade perfect build was SG-1000, but during the Mega Drive and Saturn years, SEGA's console builds were MODIFIED from their high end Arcade builds. NAOMI marked the return of Arcade perfect console hardware. Mega Drive is based of off System 16 hardware. But the System 16 board itself was build using very expensive high performance motherboards and used higher RAM than Mega Drive. MD uses the System 16B design which is modified and lower powered.


No. Mars 32X is just System 32 based. The unit has System 32 motherboards. The Star Wars Arcade port for 32X had added controller VDPs for 32X embedded inside the cartridge itself. The actual 32X cartridges used a special converter and polygon rendering chip similar to that of Star Fox. Super NES couldn't render polygons, but the special customized rendering chip build in Star Fox, were programmed for the proccessor to read the chip. The cartridge carried enough RAM and instructional data for the CPU to read the ROM and its special expansion for the SNES. The same method was used for Virtua Fighter. Since 32X was designed without its own processor, there was no way to display its capabilities.



Model 1 had a modified build planned for the Jupiter simply because SEGA was focused on 3DO,Jaguar,PCFX and had heard rumors about Nintendo planning a 32-bit console codenamed Reality/Atlantis. SEGA didn't believe a 3D system was needed, but since Star Fox could already do basic rendering, they were focused on basic 3D.


Sony Playstation went public in January of 1994. SEGA had already finished developing Saturn then and was looking what exact it was planning on doing with its 32-bit line. The Mars designed had already been scrapped by SOJ, Jupiter was what they saw as potential of being a well rounded competitor against 3DO and Jaguar, because the 32X American design had be revealed to Hayao Nakayama, there was contention on how SEGA would move forward for 1994 outside of Japan. Sega of America liked its idea and wanted funding for it, SEGA of Japan was more interested in its Jupiter concept. Ultimately, Jupiter never really got off the drawing board as SOJ reluctantly agreed to allow Sega of America to move forward with 32X. By May of 1994, Sega Saturn's prototype was already completed, PS-X itself was still in development, but SEGA wasn't about to start from scratch like Nintendo was.

32X's problem was that no R&D was conducted on it, whatsoever. The concept was made and immediately developed. That's it. SOA also gave developers no development kits for it at all. Many 3rd party companies simply developed 32X games using Genesis or SEGA CD dev kits. SEGA themselves rather handled most of the hybrid's capabilities. This is why 90% of its library was just Genesis ports. SOA hired no testers or debuggers for the actual beta builds for each. They even but strict deadlines on 32X because they wanted it out in time for the Holiday of 1994.