Dreamcast-Talk.com

MrSega, as much as I respect other peoples opinions on most things, I have to point out a couple of things. Firstly, you talk disparagingly about underpowered, completely outdated, weak hardware with 128 bit graphics from the turn of the millenium. I have to ask "You do realise you're on a DREAMCAST site ?!??!!!!". We LOVE machines like that on here ! Don't we ?

Secondly, why do you think that high-powered hardware=better games ? I'd argue that the Dreamcast, and other consoles of that generation, has at least as many good games, if not more than the ps3 and xbox 360 put together. Shit, the Nintendo DS has got as many good games as those two consoles and it's processor is a whole lot slower than the Wii's for example. If the game(Shenmue3) is good enough then, up to a point, it doesn't matter what hardware it finds a home on.

Neohound wrote:MrSega, as much as I respect other peoples opinions on most things, I have to point out a couple of things. Firstly, you talk disparagingly about underpowered, completely outdated, weak hardware with 128 bit graphics from the turn of the millenium. I have to ask "You do realise you're on a DREAMCAST site ?!??!!!!". We LOVE machines like that on here ! Don't we ?

Secondly, why do you think that high-powered hardware=better games ? I'd argue that the Dreamcast, and other consoles of that generation, has at least as many good games, if not more than the ps3 and xbox 360 put together. Shit, the Nintendo DS has got as many good games as those two consoles and it's processor is a whole lot slower than the Wii's for example. If the game(Shenmue3) is good enough then, up to a point, it doesn't matter what hardware it finds a home on.

I have nothing against Nintendo or the Wii. I understand some of the charm it has, to games who overlook its severe hardware shortcommings, but my main problem with Wii is that its suppossed to a current gen machine, why the hell is it last gen? Wii would have been a great console in like 2002 or something.

Also, while graphics don't make the games, the hardware definelty does. And most Japanese game companies know that. If you try to make a good game on a weak console like Wii, it has to match its intented audience. Shenmue is NOT for the Wii audience.

If you wanna know why SEGA's 3rd party titles haven't been top quality this gen, the anwser is pretty simple: None of the current gen machines were designed to run thier full potential. SEGA is used to working with hardware that's easy to adapt to, Xbox,PS2 & Gamecube were designed simply with a single processor and single core GPU mechanism, with combining CPU & GPU power for ultilizing full potential. 360,PS3's main problem is that both use high powered processors HPC which are time consuming,costly & aren't designed to be utilized without alot of massive budgets & time contstraints. That's why games are costing $60-70.

SEGA likes to work with hardware that's easy to use. They probably would have really supported the Wii if it had been a little more powerful. It was a snap using thier OWN hardware because they knew all of its secrets 7 are used to cutting corners in budget for its game machines.

That's why it would be smarter to invest in bringing Shenmue to thier own console.

MrSega wrote:

Neohound wrote:MrSega, as much as I respect other peoples opinions on most things, I have to point out a couple of things. Firstly, you talk disparagingly about underpowered, completely outdated, weak hardware with 128 bit graphics from the turn of the millenium. I have to ask "You do realise you're on a DREAMCAST site ?!??!!!!". We LOVE machines like that on here ! Don't we ?

Secondly, why do you think that high-powered hardware=better games ? I'd argue that the Dreamcast, and other consoles of that generation, has at least as many good games, if not more than the ps3 and xbox 360 put together. Shit, the Nintendo DS has got as many good games as those two consoles and it's processor is a whole lot slower than the Wii's for example. If the game(Shenmue3) is good enough then, up to a point, it doesn't matter what hardware it finds a home on.

I have nothing against Nintendo or the Wii. I understand some of the charm it has, to games who overlook its severe hardware shortcommings, but my main problem with Wii is that its suppossed to a current gen machine, why the hell is it last gen? Wii would have been a great console in like 2002 or something.

Also, while graphics don't make the games, the hardware definelty does. And most Japanese game companies know that. If you try to make a good game on a weak console like Wii, it has to match its intented audience. Shenmue is NOT for the Wii audience.

If you wanna know why SEGA's 3rd party titles haven't been top quality this gen, the anwser is pretty simple: None of the current gen machines were designed to run thier full potential. SEGA is used to working with hardware that's easy to adapt to, Xbox,PS2 & Gamecube were designed simply with a single processor and single core GPU mechanism, with combining CPU & GPU power for ultilizing full potential. 360,PS3's main problem is that both use high powered processors HPC which are time consuming,costly & aren't designed to be utilized without alot of massive budgets & time contstraints. That's why games are costing $60-70.

SEGA likes to work with hardware that's easy to use. They probably would have really supported the Wii if it had been a little more powerful. It was a snap using thier OWN hardware because they knew all of its secrets 7 are used to cutting corners in budget for its game machines.X

That's why it would be smarter to invest in bringing Shenmue to thier own console.

Hope you only mean DC and Genny since the Saturn was one of the worst systems to program for and almost killed the STI programmer of Sonic X-Treme. Yu Suzuki said only 1/100 programmers could utilize both SH2s effectively. In fact, Shenmue should have been released on the Saturn since it would have been a greater technological marvel and looked decent too.

The failure of the DC will always be intertwined with the disaster known as Saturn.

@CruSega. The Saturn was not an immpossible console to work with. It was just very complex. And most non Japanese publishers weren't properly trained on how to utilize its capabilities. STI went on to start in house development teams at SEGA of America. Saturn did NOT destroy them. You must really hate the Saturn.
FYI, Shenmue started development LATE in the Saturn's life. Its lackluster response is Sony's fault. Blame the PS2 shortage hype. Overzealous consumes brought lackluster launch titles instead of a classic. ALSO blame the bias game reviewers, most game sites & magazines did not give Shenmue a high score. Leave the Saturn out of this & stop blaming it. Its irrelavant.

Both Jaguar & Nintendo 64 were WAY more difficult to program than Saturn & Jaguar was extremely confusing to develop for.

You probably are little noobish. Sonic Xtreme was only on Saturn during the middle of its development, the game started development on Sega 32X/Mars hardware & remained on it for almost 2 years it was always intended to be 2D. It was cancelled because STI did not know how to run the Saturn high res RAM sprite rotation & because after retooling the game to 3D, did not want to miss the 1996 holiday season.

Dreamcast failed? No it didn't. In its brief 2 & half year lifespan it sold 20 million units worldwide. Not bad for a shortlived console.

there's no need to start insulting people (again)

MrSega wrote:@CruSega. The Saturn was not an immpossible console to work with. It was just very complex. And most non Japanese publishers weren't properly trained on how to utilize its capabilities. STI went on to start in house development teams at SEGA of America. Saturn did NOT destroy them. You must really hate the Saturn.
FYI, Shenmue started development LATE in the Saturn's life. Its lackluster response is Sony's fault. Blame the PS2 shortage hype. Overzealous consumes brought lackluster launch titles instead of a classic. ALSO blame the bias game reviewers, most game sites & magazines did not give Shenmue a high score. Leave the Saturn out of this & stop blaming it. Its irrelavant.

Both Jaguar & Nintendo 64 were WAY more difficult to program than Saturn & Jaguar was extremely confusing to develop for.

You probably are little noobish. Sonic Xtreme was only on Saturn during the middle of its development, the game started development on Sega 32X/Mars hardware & remained on it for almost 2 years it was always intended to be 2D. It was cancelled because STI did not know how to run the Saturn high res RAM sprite rotation & because after retooling the game to 3D, did not want to miss the 1996 holiday season.

Dreamcast failed? No it didn't. In its brief 2 & half year lifespan it sold 20 million units worldwide. Not bad for a shortlived console.

CruSega is correct, the Saturn was, architecturally speaking, a mess. For the first couple of years of it's life Sega omitted to provide in depth documentation on the Saturn and hardly any programming tools, programmers were forced to rely on coding in assembly language as there was no decent programming libraries available for it. Having watched the Saturn version of Shenmue in action I do find it pretty impressive compared to other Saturn games, however the frame rate seemed to be fairly low, possibly as it had not been fully optimized yet, however the was ONE game and it was cancelled too.

Fact is that Sega royally screwed up with the Saturn and allowed Sony into the market without much of a fight, mostly due to the Sega management having been completely thrown off their game by the announcement of the Playstation.
Had Sega of delayed the Saturn, either by going with the original date in September 1995 rather than the stupid decision of releasing it on May 11th 1995, or by delaying it in to 1996 to allow time for some decent dev tools to be created and distributed to development teams around the world. Had Sega done this then they could of had a chance at beating the PSOne.

If the Saturn had done better against the PSOne then Sega probably would not of killed it prematurely (although the Saturn was a complex and expensive system to build, compared to the PSOne).

The lifetime sales figures for the Dreamcast were actually 10.6 million systems sold, not the 20 million that you claim.

Source: http://www.gamepro.com/article/features ... -all-time/

Quote: "Released in the fall of 1998 in Japan and a year later in the US, the Dreamcast was Sega's fifth and final video game system. The much beloved console launched years ahead of the competition but ultimately struggled to shed the negative reputation it had gained during the Saturn, Sega 32X, and Sega CD days. As a result, casual gamers and jaded third-party developers doubted Sega's ability to deliver. Despite a much celebrated game library, the Dreamcast only sold 10.6 million units during its short, three-year lifespan."

MrSega wrote:@CruSega. The Saturn was not an iymmpossible console to work with. It was just very complex. And most non Japanese publishers weren't properly trained on how to utilize its capabilities. STI went on to start in house development teams at SEGA of America. Saturn did NOT destroy them. You must really hate the Saturn.

I don't hate the Saturn. Sega developers did what they could with its unconventional architecture but I still play Burning Rangers, Fighter Megamix, Sonic R, NiGHTS, Manx TT, Hang-On '95, Sega Rally, Dead or Alive , Super GT 24, Drift King and VF2 to this day.

Could the Saturn have been more competitive and programmer friendly with a single SH3 CPU? Damn straight! But what ultimately killed it is Bernie Stolar announcing in 1998 that the Saturn wasn't part of Sega's future. Do you think that did any favors for the DC? It helped to kill off Sega's most successful system in Japan, many of whom did not rush to buy a DC and it cemented Sega's reputation as a company that always abandoned its systems such as Sega CD and 32X.

Yu Suzuki is the one who is quoted in NG magazine that only about 1 percent of programmers could take full advantage of the Saturn's power. Funny, but I don't recall Miyamoto publicly condemning the N64 when making Mario 64.

FYI, Shenmue started development LATE in the Saturn's life. Its lackluster response is Sony's fault. Blame the PS2 shortage hype. Overzealous consumes brought lackluster launch titles instead of a classic. ALSO blame the bias game reviewers.Overzealous consumes brought lackluster launch titles instead of a classic. ALSO blame the bias game reviewers, most game sites & magazines did not give Shenmue a high score. Leave the Saturn out of this & stop blaming it. Its irrelavant.

If you purchased a Saturn in the 1997 holidays only to hear that it was no longer part of Sega's future from a douchebag like Stolar, would that have endeared you to the Dreamcast?

On the other hand, if you heard that a game like Shenmue was about to be released on the Saturn for it's long suffering supporters and it pushed the Saturn like no game before it, would that not have saved Sega boatloads of supporters who jumped ship to the PS2, N64 and even the PS1?

You probably are little noobish. Sonic Xtreme was only on Saturn during the middle of its development, the game started development on Sega 32X/Mars hardware & remained on it for almost 2 years it was always intended to be 2D. It was cancelled because STI did not know how to run the Saturn high res RAM sprite rotation & because after retooling the game to 3D, did not want to miss the 1996 holiday season.

And if Yuji Naka had wanted to help back then, Sonic X-Treme might have been released in the critical 1996 Xmas to compete with Mario 64. Fact stands that STI's version of Sonic X-Treme looks miles better than Naka's version which look as bad as the "awake" sections of NiGHTS and was the demo was sold on EBay for about one thousand bucks. Mars/32X was identical enough to the Saturn that a great Sonic title could have seen the light of day if Naka got off his high horse and helped the poor dude who nearly died trying to finish Sonic XTreme.

That left Sega with a port of Sonic 3D Blast which was not even designed for a 32 bit system and was indistinguishable from the Genesis version.

So many people have wondered what if, after seeing the STI demo of Sonic X-Treme. To have only one laughable 16 bit port of its flagship character in the system's console life is unforgivable. And as much as I love the flight portions of NiGHTS, its still no Sonic replacement. Xmas 96 proved to be a pivotal year for Sega as gamers flocked to the N64 to play the new Mario masterpiece.

Dreamcast failed? No it didn't. In its brief 2 & half year lifespan it sold 20 million units worldwide. Not bad for a shortlived console.

I'm as much a Sega fanboy as anyone here but DC did not sell 20 million units worldwide. Show me the numbers, please! And even if it did, many leeches knew that pre-2001 DCs ran bootable games that were downloaded right off the web without a need for hardware modding.

mazonemayu wrote:there's no need to start insulting people (again)

The Rumors/Speculation section is basically a war zone! I knew it wouldn't take long for this thread to go off topic.

SHENMUE III PEOPLE! SHENMUE III!

Shenmue was not overlooked on Dreamcast. It sold 1.2 million copies, not to be sniffed at.
When Shenmue was released in the US and Europe there were 6 million Dreamcast sales worldwide(and btw it was just over 10 million by the end of 2003) meaning that 1 in 5 Dreamcast owners purchased the game-a terrific ratio by any standards.

Also, don't forget that the Dreamcast was a heavily pirated system so the actual amount of people who bought/downloaded/played the game is incredibly hard to quantify. However way you look at it, Shenmue was a success only let down by the insane costs of making it in the first place and the subsequent early demise of the DC.