Shenmue Saturn + Sega Systems Talk

[MrSega]

Exactly, we were talking about Shenmue and VF2 graphics/looks and how much Sega pissed away on Shenmue Saturn cost.

We don't know how good Shenmue Saturn could have looked polished and released because all we see are developmental youtube demos. But the demo looked good I liked camera scrolling and detail I saw of those clips.

With that said I'm glad Sega released Sonic adventure and Shenmue on dc.

It doesn't matter what machine was more powerful not sure why that was discussed.

Show me a fighting game on psone even in 1999 that looks better than virtua fighter 2 in 1996 or whatever though.

For the guy who said everything I said on last page but written better, thank you for
answering my serial port question.

By 1997, SEGA finally begin to utilize the Saturn's capabilities. They had discovered a loophole around its difficult programming by designing a special backup cartridge eqiupped with extra RAM & Intructional data that allowed the Saturn to push more graphical power & extra data. They had also figured out a way to code both VDPs with high res 3D which would made Saturn visually competitive against N64.


At the time, Yu Suzuki & SEGA were ready for Saturn's 2nd Generation. They knew the console still had life left in it. But Bernie Stolar tied SEGA's hands behind thier backs. Yeah, he's SOLEY to blame for Saturn's western failure

[MrSega]

[
quote="dark"]I know we are all sega fanatics on this forum, but I don't see how Shenmue saturn looks better than a PS1 game. There were plenty of 3D ps1 games with fairly large worlds/levels such as the Tenchu series or Tail Concerto, and I think Shenmue saturn with its blocky graphics and low res textures looks on par with them rather than vastly superior.[/quote]

Tail Concerto is one of the ugliest PS1 games I've ever seen. Tekken 3 and FFVIII are the.system's graphical highlights as far as I'm concerned.

Blocky graphics? You do know most PS1 games had very low res graphics and slow framerate right? That the Saturn used a different 3D engine.

PS1 had its share of major problems which is why it hasn't aged very well.

One was that its processor was very limited in power. It used low quality Video Memory & was only capable of 1MB RAM.


The engine could only push 150,000 Geometrics. This resulted in lost in texture, enviorment, and polygon clipping.

Many games had slowdown & choppy framerate due to the systems limited graphical memory.


Saturn's 3D had none of these problems.

[MrSega]

@Jenkins. The SEGA Jupiter was originally touted as MD/Genesis' successor. It was originally going to be a Model 1 based cartridge system with basic 3D features. Its competitors were going to be Nintendo Reality/Atlantis, PCFX, 3DO, Jaguar. The project was originally codenamed "Aurora". They made the switch to low res Model 2 "Saturn" in late Summer 1993, after Model 1's poor showing at the JAMMA Amusement tradeshow.

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Ok, so Mars was 32x. I loved Virua Fighter and Virtua Racing on it.

Neptune was genesis/32x stand alone sleek version (one prototype exists I think).

A Genesis, still supporting Master System in regions, Sega CD, 32X, Sega Channel, Game Gear, Nomad, CDx, working on Saturn and Neptune, and whatever hell else Sega was thin itself out on was a bad move.

We know what Saturn is. But what the hell is a Jupiter system ? Genesis 2 like a 32 bit Genesis was worked on while all that other stuff was going on LOL ? Or a rival idea to Saturn ? What games ever used model 1 graphics ? VF and stuff was model 2 yes ?

Where are screenshots of this N64 rival graphics from dev kit back up cart in development of late Saturn's possible tech you speak of ?

What was cdx or sega cd code name ?

[Scandinavian]

I dont think they wasted all the money on the Saturn.
Didnt Yu say that the saturn version was more of a sketch on how it would look on the Dreamcast?
The funding they used on the saturn version was atleast to a certain point saved in when they started the Dreamcast version. The charecters where already made, same with the landscape proberly etc.
The high sum of money on Shenmue was for all of it. all the way from Yu´s travels to China, the scripting, the architects, music, motion capture, saturn and the dreamcast version.
I doubt that Shenmue on saturn was even playable in its form when they switched to Dreamcast

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Ok, any pictures of Jupiter ? Here is Neptune @ 1: 50 :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tAGCX3OvpQ[/youtube]

[cloofoofoo]

I agree, also this vid proves that the saturn was superior to the ps1 if programmed right, there's no way in hell the ps1 was capable of that kinda stuff

SEGA Saturn had double the power of PS1, capable of an average 500,000 polygons per second and could push up to 900,000 when pushed to its limits. PS1 only used 398,000. But most PS1 games were only averaging 200,000.

Saturn's problem was that since its low res Model 2 hardware, its VDPs were designed to proccess the same data. Most developers thought Saturn & PS1 were one in the same, not realizing that Saturn used a completely different more state-of-the-art 3D engine. Quadlateral instead of Trilateral.

Had SEGA taught its 3rd party partners how to build games from the ground up, there wouldn't have been a problem programming it in the first place.

I dunno according to wiki it can do 500,000 polygons flat shaded(untextured?) and 200,000 textured polygons.I think the conditions of those polygon counts your listing are unrealistic?

[MrSega]

Ok, so Mars was 32x. I loved Virua Fighter and Virtua Racing on it.

Neptune was genesis/32x stand alone sleek version (one prototype exists I think).

A Genesis, still supporting Master System in regions, Sega CD, 32X, Sega Channel, Game Gear, Nomad, CDx, working on Saturn and Neptune, and whatever hell else Sega was thin itself out on was a bad move.

We know what Saturn is. But what the hell is a Jupiter system ? Genesis 2 like a 32 bit Genesis was worked on while all that other stuff was going on LOL ? Or a rival idea to Saturn ? What games ever used model 1 graphics ? VF and stuff was model 2 yes ?

Where are screenshots of this N64 rival graphics from dev kit back up cart in development of late Saturn's possible tech you speak of ?

What was cdx or sega cd code name ?

Sega "MARS" was developed

internally by SEGA Amusements USA/Skunkworks. It was developed using parts from System 32 Arcade machines and was concepted through a prototype of a brief scrapped 2D only project from SEGA of Japan/Away 27 codenamed "GigaDrive". At the time, Sega of America was hungry for info regarding Genesis/MD successor, 3DO had just been announced and they were concerned about it being a fierce market contender, SOJ developed "Aurora" under strict miltary grade top secret. Telling no one about the project and leaving its Western divisions completely in the dark. SOJ only told them "A more superior machine to 3DO is in the works".

Right after CES 1993 in June, Sega Amusements USA begin to brainstorm how they could preserve its successful 16-bit market, their solution: Develop a cartridge attachment for the Genesis. The idea for "Super 32X" or "Genesis 32X" was literally drawn up on a napkin.

In December 1993, SEGA finalized the design of Saturn and replaced its cartridge form with CD ROM to make the console look less budgeted than 3DO, just as the development kits were being designed, Sony jumped into the hardware business surprising everyone and caused a large setback for Nintendo who was forced to start from scratch regarding "Reality", the chipset which was supposed to be similar to 3DO was scrapped and System 64(a chipset SEGA had brief interest in for its Model 3 arcade machine) was chosen and the project officially became "Ultra 64".

the 32X idea was HATED by everyone at Sega of Japan. Yuji Naka was so fed up by SOA's poor management that he returned to Japan and wanted no part in 32X.


CDX is a redesign of Mega CD/Sega CD. Its a portable CD hybrid SEGA of Japan designed to cut the manufacturing costs of Sega CD. Mega CD was originally "Mega LD". SEGA had planned a Laser Disc add on for Mega Drive with Pioneer back in 1989-1990, the project was overbudgeted and too troublesome, so it was scrapped early on. SEGA designed Mega CD using the help of JVC to stop NEC's PC Engine market from giving MD such a hard time. The project was also top secret(which goes to show you that SEGA does have the ability to develop home consumer hardware without anyone ever suspecting it.

As for Jupiter, like I told you, it was a Model 1 based Cartridge system SEGA planned for to go up against 3DO,PCFX,Nintendo Reality, and Jaguar. They scrapped it because people at JAMMA 1993 hated the Model 1's graphics and considered them too primatitive and too basic. Model 1 was also very expensive to operate.

The spectators were more impressed with Model 2, so SEGA had to make a switch to Model 2, but they couldn't find arcade perfect silicon, so they obtained off-the-self-parts of Low Resolution Model 2 hardware.

SEGA still felt that the Saturn still had plenty of time to get its act together before arriving overseas(Saturn was always planned for 1995) so they planned on launching Jupiter for release in America and Europe as a Vaporware machine for 1994 and sent its prototypes over to America. But by January, not only was PS-X official, but SOJ found out that SOA had developed their own hybrid without SEGA of Japan's permission and knowledge.


Sega Neptune was a beta build of GigaDrive, SEGA of Japan never planned on using this design or finalizing it. SOA briefly weighted the option of releasing this design instead of 32X during 1994.

[MrSega]

I agree, also this vid proves that the saturn was superior to the ps1 if programmed right, there's no way in hell the ps1 was capable of that kinda stuff

SEGA Saturn had double the power of PS1, capable of an average 500,000 polygons per second and could push up to 900,000 when pushed to its limits. PS1 only used 398,000. But most PS1 games were only averaging 200,000.

Saturn's problem was that since its low res Model 2 hardware, its VDPs were designed to proccess the same data. Most developers thought Saturn & PS1 were one in the same, not realizing that Saturn used a completely different more state-of-the-art 3D engine. Quadlateral instead of Trilateral.

Had SEGA taught its 3rd party partners how to build games from the ground up, there wouldn't have been a problem programming it in the first place.

I dunno according to wiki it can do 500,000 polygons flat shaded(untextured?) and 200,000 textured polygons.I think the conditions of those polygon counts your listing are unrealistic?

SEGA Saturn used Sqaure polygons "Quadlateral" which was an older more complex 3D graphics engine designed by Lockheed Martin. PS1 used Triangles and was only capable of 360K flat shaded polygons and 200,000 Gourads.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/916392-playstation/faqs/4701

Since Saturn used Sqaures, developers weren't used to this type of programming. Most developers expected Saturn and PS1's engines to be similar to each other, but again Sqaures as well as the transferring graphical data design of Saturn is completely different from PS1.


Here's a comparison to Saturn's spec and higher resolution than PS1:

Main CPUs : 2 x Hitachi SH-2 @ 28.6364 MHz
Sound CPU : MC68000 @ 11.45456 MHz
Sound chip : SCSP/YMF292-F (315-5687)/"LAKE" @ 11.3MHz, 32 PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) Channels, 44.1 khz Sampling Rate
Secondary CPUs;
SCU DSP : fixed point maths coprocessor, up to 4 parallel instructions.
VDP 1 : 32-bit video display processor : sprite and polygon, dual 256KB frame buffers for rotation and scaling effects, Texture Mapping, Goraud Shading, 512KB cache for textures
VDP 2 : 32-bit background and scroll plane video display processor, 2 Windows for special calculations, transparency, shadowing, background engine, 5 simulataneous scrolling backgrounds, 2 simultaneous rotating playfields, up to 60 frames per second animation
Main RAM : 2 Megabytes (16 megabits)
VRAM : 1.54 Megabytes (12 megabits)
Audio RAM : 512 Kilobytes (4 megabits)
Rendering Speed : 200,000 Texture Mapped Polygons/Second, 500,000 Flat Shaded Polygons/Second


Sega Saturn games used 320x224 Resolution on average. PS1 only used 256 x 240 on average, and its later games used 320x240.

Saturn on average used 16 Megabits of Video RAM, PS1 used only 8.

[MrSega]

I agree, also this vid proves that the saturn was superior to the ps1 if programmed right, there's no way in hell the ps1 was capable of that kinda stuff

SEGA Saturn had double the power of PS1, capable of an average 500,000 polygons per second and could push up to 900,000 when pushed to its limits. PS1 only used 398,000. But most PS1 games were only averaging 200,000.

Saturn's problem was that since its low res Model 2 hardware, its VDPs were designed to proccess the same data. Most developers thought Saturn & PS1 were one in the same, not realizing that Saturn used a completely different more state-of-the-art 3D engine. Quadlateral instead of Trilateral.

Had SEGA taught its 3rd party partners how to build games from the ground up, there wouldn't have been a problem programming it in the first place.

I dunno according to wiki it can do 500,000 polygons flat shaded(untextured?) and 200,000 textured polygons.I think the conditions of those polygon counts your listing are unrealistic?

SEGA Saturn used Sqaure polygons "Quadlateral" which was an older more complex 3D graphics engine designed by Lockheed Martin. PS1 used Triangles and was only capable of 360K flat shaded polygons and 200,000 Gourads.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/916392-playstation/faqs/4701

Since Saturn used Sqaures, developers weren't used to this type of programming. Most developers expected Saturn and PS1's engines to be similar to each other, but again Sqaures as well as the transferring graphical data design of Saturn is completely different from PS1.


Here's a comparison to Saturn's spec and higher resolution than PS1:

Main CPUs : 2 x Hitachi SH-2 @ 28.6364 MHz
Sound CPU : MC68000 @ 11.45456 MHz
Sound chip : SCSP/YMF292-F (315-5687)/"LAKE" @ 11.3MHz, 32 PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) Channels, 44.1 khz Sampling Rate
Secondary CPUs;
SCU DSP : fixed point maths coprocessor, up to 4 parallel instructions.
VDP 1 : 32-bit video display processor : sprite and polygon, dual 256KB frame buffers for rotation and scaling effects, Texture Mapping, Goraud Shading, 512KB cache for textures
VDP 2 : 32-bit background and scroll plane video display processor, 2 Windows for special calculations, transparency, shadowing, background engine, 5 simulataneous scrolling backgrounds, 2 simultaneous rotating playfields, up to 60 frames per second animation
Main RAM : 2 Megabytes (16 megabits)
VRAM : 1.54 Megabytes (12 megabits)
Audio RAM : 512 Kilobytes (4 megabits)
Rendering Speed : 200,000 Texture Mapped Polygons/Second, 500,000 Flat Shaded Polygons/Second


Sega Saturn games used 320x224 Resolution on average. PS1 only used 256 x 240 on average, and its later games used 320x240.

Saturn on average used 16 Megabites of Video RAM, PS1 used only 8.