A few PSO questions before getting online

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Elliander
lithium
Posts: 40

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#21 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:52 pm

BlueCrab wrote:Probably, but there's absolutely no point to doing so and it will not get the same guild card number as the Dreamcast copy on the server.


Actually, I can think of one point: If using the same SN/AK would allow me to play with a different guild card on PC tan on DC, but the SN/AK is otherwise the same on the PC version save as it is in the DC version save, it might make it easier to figure out how the save files are encrypted. For example, what happens if I create a new character with the same name and the same SN/AK, but on PC? It would at least be interesting to compare the files. Second best case scenario they were lazy in making the PC version and just used a VMU save dump.

BlueCrab wrote:The VMI file is useless for the most part, just ignore it (it's just metadata).


Yeah, I am seeing that, but thanks for confirming!

BlueCrab wrote:You'd have to figure out where in the code of the game the encryption/decryption is performed and figure out how it works.


I think I figured out where it is, although I'd have to do a few more tests to be sure. As for how it works, still not sure, although I have my thoughts.

BlueCrab wrote:It wouldn't surprise me that most of the data is the same, as Sega pretty much just used simple stream encryption without any salting all over the place in the game. If that is the case here (which I always suspected was the case), the only things that would be different between two copies of the save file from the same character would indeed be the bytes that are different in the plaintext before encryption (give or take a few around them for the block size of the encryption cipher).


Yeah, I am fairly certain they are using Stream Encryption here. In which case the key cipher is probably derived from simple math done on the SN/AK. I doubt that they did anything complicated with the SN/AK though. For example, if they did some math on the SN and AK together that would mean that the console would either have to store that new key somewhere on the console or they'd have to do additional math every time the game saves and loads which could impair performance.

If we could figure out, at the very least, exactly what change results in the character results in what change to the hex values and compare the results between multiple different SN/AK tests it should at least give enough information to take a character on one save and change it to match another on another save if nothing else, although best case scenario would be figuring out out to change it back to plain text and encrypt again which would allow you to change SN/AK even without having to create a new character on the new SN/AK.

My Dreamcast is modified with a dual BIOS switch and an overclock switch (that can't be used with GDEMU or DreamConn+). I also play with a VGA mod that I run through the HDMI adapter so I can play using my computer's video capture card which is how I get the screenshots. (Technically, if I wanted to, I could even setup a video channel of me playing Dreamcast games with my setup). The second BIOS was setup primarily to dump original discs through the serial port. I wonder if maybe there would be a way to set something up with the second BIOS to just listen for what the game does when it loads the character up. Like, dump the RAM or something. Although in that case I wonder if a Dreamcast emulator would work better, assuming any emulator supports the VMU files. Being able to see what the game is actually doing would probably help quite a bit.

BlueCrab wrote:I think it just has a lot to do with the fact that most of us playing the games now are older and wiser... and not a bunch of teenagers anymore. ;) I assure you, PSO was pretty dern toxic, full of cheaters, pkers, etc. back in the day on Sega's servers (especially the US ones).


That makes sense. And anyone who stuck with a game this long actually enjoys the grind. For some reason playing a dungeon crawler without effort somehow doesn't feel fun, although figuring out how to min max to reduce the effort does feel fun.

Now I wonder how people were able to cheat on the Dreamcast though. I didn't really play much online back in the day since I didn't have a reliable internet access (was still on a 28k modem and needed phone for other things) but I didn't know PKing was even a thing. Looking it up I heard about people somehow breaing into password protected parties to kill pople, and something called "NOLing" where they'd overwrite your character with an NPC named NOL somehow. (which, to be honest, shouldn't be that hard to avoid since you can just remove your VMU while playing and only insert when you want to save the game). How can the game be so locked down that we still don't have a decryption key for the saves today, yet decades ago people were able to do things like that? Was it just a game shark thing?

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BlueCrab
Developer
Posts: 843

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#22 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:50 pm

Elliander wrote:Actually, I can think of one point: If using the same SN/AK would allow me to play with a different guild card on PC tan on DC, but the SN/AK is otherwise the same on the PC version save as it is in the DC version save, it might make it easier to figure out how the save files are encrypted. For example, what happens if I create a new character with the same name and the same SN/AK, but on PC? It would at least be interesting to compare the files. Second best case scenario they were lazy in making the PC version and just used a VMU save dump.
The save files are quite different because PC allows multiple saves in one file whereas DC does not. They're definitely not just VMU dumps.

As for why there's not a tool to do what you want as of right now -- well, nobody's put the time into doing it because... well, for the most part people don't seem to care that much. I really don't foresee it being a hugely difficult task to just change the serial number on a save file (for instance) -- it's just something that takes time that nobody's bothered to put in (largely probably because how easy it is to cheat with a CodeBreaker to "restore" your character to what it was before if you're really only after restoring old characters).

Also, there are people (like myself) who could assuredly do it -- but haven't so that people don't use it as a tool for cheating (because that will inevitably be what it is used for). Making tools that will essentially only end up being used for cheating is kinda a crappy prospect when you've worked to try to stop cheaters from running amok on the server, after all.

Now I wonder how people were able to cheat on the Dreamcast though. I didn't really play much online back in the day since I didn't have a reliable internet access (was still on a 28k modem and needed phone for other things) but I didn't know PKing was even a thing. Looking it up I heard about people somehow breaing into password protected parties to kill pople, and something called "NOLing" where they'd overwrite your character with an NPC named NOL somehow. (which, to be honest, shouldn't be that hard to avoid since you can just remove your VMU while playing and only insert when you want to save the game). How can the game be so locked down that we still don't have a decryption key for the saves today, yet decades ago people were able to do things like that? Was it just a game shark thing?
Gameshark/CodeBreaker, packet capture and injection, etc. Basically, if you figure out the packet stream, it's pretty much dead easy to inject whatever you want to send it to the server. Sega's server was notoriously bad at validating what you sent and basically just acted as a broadcaster for packets when you're in a team.

Also, note it's dead easy to decrypt the packets the game sends (and encrypt your own on the way to the server) as long as you see what it sends at the beginning. That's largely how I got my start on writing the server was by making just such a tool that would let me monitor whatever the game sent to another server and what it got back as a reply. ;)

xatruio
shadow
Posts: 7

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#23 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:04 pm

BlueCrab wrote:
4.) Would there be any issues with registration to and using a private server if I am using GDEMU? (obviouly I own a copy since I have a new serial number) or would it be in some way better to use my GDROM with the disc?
You can use a GDEMU just fine -- the server doesn't care about that. However, you will need a special version of the Sylverant PSO Patcher disc image if you intend to do so -- it doesn't normally support GDEMU (which is really something I should correct at some point). Some people prefer to use pre-modified images that eliminate the need to use the PSO patcher, but that is largely up to you and not necessarily something I recommend in any way.


What about using MODE? Somewhat lost on how to use the patcher2.0 in my MODE SSD's PSOv2 folder--if possible?

Honestly not too fussed, I agree 100% about offline being just as fun as online mode. Certainly don't mind firing up my spare GDrom working Dreamcast for my old character online; started a fresh lvl 1 on the MODE and been loving the grind again!

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BlueCrab
Developer
Posts: 843

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#24 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:51 pm

xatruio wrote:What about using MODE? Somewhat lost on how to use the patcher2.0 in my MODE SSD's PSOv2 folder--if possible?

Honestly not too fussed, I agree 100% about offline being just as fun as online mode. Certainly don't mind firing up my spare GDrom working Dreamcast for my old character online; started a fresh lvl 1 on the MODE and been loving the grind again!

I don't own a MODE so I can't really support how to do so... All I can say is that on GDEMU, the normal approach is to put the patcher as the image before PSO on the sd card so that you can "switch discs" exactly once to get to the game.

xatruio
shadow
Posts: 7

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#25 » Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:17 am

Great idea, much appreciated! Makes me curious about Bleemcast... thanks for allowing me to veer off topic a bit--did not feel such a newbie question needed a new thread when I found simlrities here

Have a good one!

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Johne
fragger
Posts: 260

Re: A few PSO questions before getting online

Post#26 » Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:07 pm

BlueCrab wrote:
xatruio wrote:What about using MODE? Somewhat lost on how to use the patcher2.0 in my MODE SSD's PSOv2 folder--if possible?

Honestly not too fussed, I agree 100% about offline being just as fun as online mode. Certainly don't mind firing up my spare GDrom working Dreamcast for my old character online; started a fresh lvl 1 on the MODE and been loving the grind again!

I don't own a MODE so I can't really support how to do so... All I can say is that on GDEMU, the normal approach is to put the patcher as the image before PSO on the sd card so that you can "switch discs" exactly once to get to the game.


Hello BlueCrap.

Speaking of patch on image, I'd like to know if its possible apply a patch directly on GDI of PSOV2 JPN, for example. I have the original game and would like to play on ISO LOADER al well to take advantage of the loading speeds.

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