Power smash online revival chances ?

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Xiden
Super Sonic
Posts: 1599

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#21 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:04 am

carnage wrote:
colgate wrote:For power smash you had to buy a pass to play online. Shocking but lots of Japanese games required that.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


The SegaNet service/ISP was not optional at the beginning either, requiring you to chose it as your ISP for online gameplay - hence the reason for still shipping Dreamkey 3.0/3.1's many years after the end of hardware production to let people enter their own ISP details. In Europe, we could not even get online until about 1 year later than American or Japanese people, in addition to being the last region to get the system released (of course AUS was even later...) Anyway, PlanetWeb 3 and XDP solved the issue.

Ultimately though, this was because of the PRE-KAGE and the rest of the TCP/IP isao.net systems like KAGE or KDDI - two different systems, the latter even being used on the PS2 instead of the American Sega SNAP. The first one to use a simple standardized network model (not KAGE though) was Chu Chu Rocket! on the Dreamcast.
So unfortunately, there are only a select few titles being able to be revived because of the PHYSICAL hardware needed to perform the type of phone-switching service that for example SEGA Rally 2 used in japan - and yes, it did have online play. Other challanges in reverse-engineering this stuff is the huge language barrier most non-Japanese struggle with and ultimately use alot of time just figuring out the menus of, etc.

So as long as the game is TCP/IP, and one "could get help from someone who knows Japanese or something like that", the games we are talking about *IS* not much different than the games that already are revived - and thus not any harder to do, BUT may still be very different as we see even in-between first(or second)-party titles in USA as well. A great example being Outtrigger vs Alien Front Online (although some similarities exist). AM2 games share the same code base and thus is not hard to do - if they both have been released in the same region.

Sadly, most of the fighting games used that old switching system to match up players...

On the Saturn, there even was an online RPG game that was released pretty late in the Saturn's lifespan even in Japan where the Saturn didn't do as bad as many believe. That game (because of the lack of remembering the title - or worse trying to spell it out) was released on the Japanese Saturn (non-Net-Link) Modem HSS-0127 / Victor RN-M141, which also required these pre-paid cards, rendering them practically useless today compared to the American Net-Link - but hey, it did work though. That particular service, the SegaSaturn Networks is of course useless today, but Net-Link is not. This seem to be a bit of a "cultural difference" between the two regions as this was common even for the peripherals enabling previous systems to use the XBAND service for P2P gaming. This however was the first own proprietary system in Segas history, which was ultimately based on what later was very similar to the early-Dreamcast online service in Japan.

Where to focus imo;

* Aero Dancing I & I S D
* The GuruGuru Onsen series
* The Sakura Taisen Online series


Phone switching games can be brought back. Just a matter of programming pi software that can simulate landline service. Check out what the xband revival team is doing ;)

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Roareye
Prince of Persia
Posts: 340
Contact:

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#22 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:56 pm

Someone is reviving X-band? I have one of those for Mega Drive, assumed it would forever be a dead curiosity piece! X-band has gotta be more outmoded and harder to emulate than DWANGO and KDDI etc, surely?

Exciting developments even if we are years off of the final applications.

DreamcastUK
Doom
Posts: 190
Contact:

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#23 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:21 pm

If it played anything like Virtua Tennis 4 does Online it’s not worth the effort restoring it
Online Games: PSO | Quake III Arena | Toy Racer | 4x4 Evo | Starlancer | Planet Ring | Maximum Pool

ItsMuchMore
Founder & Lead Editor

The Dreamcast Junkyard
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sgmx
fire
Posts: 81

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#24 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:57 pm

DreamcastUK wrote:If it played anything like Virtua Tennis 4 does Online it’s not worth the effort restoring it


Ah ah i fully agree, I was hesitating to write something like this

carnage
shadow
Posts: 10

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#25 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Xiden wrote:
carnage wrote:
colgate wrote:For power smash you had to buy a pass to play online. Shocking but lots of Japanese games required that.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


The SegaNet service/ISP was not optional at the beginning either, requiring you to chose it as your ISP for online gameplay - hence the reason for still shipping Dreamkey 3.0/3.1's many years after the end of hardware production to let people enter their own ISP details. In Europe, we could not even get online until about 1 year later than American or Japanese people, in addition to being the last region to get the system released (of course AUS was even later...) Anyway, PlanetWeb 3 and XDP solved the issue.

Ultimately though, this was because of the PRE-KAGE and the rest of the TCP/IP isao.net systems like KAGE or KDDI - two different systems, the latter even being used on the PS2 instead of the American Sega SNAP. The first one to use a simple standardized network model (not KAGE though) was Chu Chu Rocket! on the Dreamcast.
So unfortunately, there are only a select few titles being able to be revived because of the PHYSICAL hardware needed to perform the type of phone-switching service that for example SEGA Rally 2 used in japan - and yes, it did have online play. Other challanges in reverse-engineering this stuff is the huge language barrier most non-Japanese struggle with and ultimately use alot of time just figuring out the menus of, etc.

So as long as the game is TCP/IP, and one "could get help from someone who knows Japanese or something like that", the games we are talking about *IS* not much different than the games that already are revived - and thus not any harder to do, BUT may still be very different as we see even in-between first(or second)-party titles in USA as well. A great example being Outtrigger vs Alien Front Online (although some similarities exist). AM2 games share the same code base and thus is not hard to do - if they both have been released in the same region.

Sadly, most of the fighting games used that old switching system to match up players...

On the Saturn, there even was an online RPG game that was released pretty late in the Saturn's lifespan even in Japan where the Saturn didn't do as bad as many believe. That game (because of the lack of remembering the title - or worse trying to spell it out) was released on the Japanese Saturn (non-Net-Link) Modem HSS-0127 / Victor RN-M141, which also required these pre-paid cards, rendering them practically useless today compared to the American Net-Link - but hey, it did work though. That particular service, the SegaSaturn Networks is of course useless today, but Net-Link is not. This seem to be a bit of a "cultural difference" between the two regions as this was common even for the peripherals enabling previous systems to use the XBAND service for P2P gaming. This however was the first own proprietary system in Segas history, which was ultimately based on what later was very similar to the early-Dreamcast online service in Japan.

Where to focus imo;

* Aero Dancing I & I S D
* The GuruGuru Onsen series
* The Sakura Taisen Online series


Phone switching games can be brought back. Just a matter of programming pi software that can simulate landline service. Check out what the xband revival team is doing ;)


The SEGASaturn Network is not a phone simulation based on software nor hardware. It is a TCP/IP server system similar to KAGE at that time, but not ready as an official online-platform until the PS2-good-era.

Dwango and XBAND is two totally different systems, as is Dial Direct (Net-Link).

User avatar
Xiden
Super Sonic
Posts: 1599

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#26 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:11 pm

carnage wrote:
Xiden wrote:
carnage wrote:
The SegaNet service/ISP was not optional at the beginning either, requiring you to chose it as your ISP for online gameplay - hence the reason for still shipping Dreamkey 3.0/3.1's many years after the end of hardware production to let people enter their own ISP details. In Europe, we could not even get online until about 1 year later than American or Japanese people, in addition to being the last region to get the system released (of course AUS was even later...) Anyway, PlanetWeb 3 and XDP solved the issue.

Ultimately though, this was because of the PRE-KAGE and the rest of the TCP/IP isao.net systems like KAGE or KDDI - two different systems, the latter even being used on the PS2 instead of the American Sega SNAP. The first one to use a simple standardized network model (not KAGE though) was Chu Chu Rocket! on the Dreamcast.
So unfortunately, there are only a select few titles being able to be revived because of the PHYSICAL hardware needed to perform the type of phone-switching service that for example SEGA Rally 2 used in japan - and yes, it did have online play. Other challanges in reverse-engineering this stuff is the huge language barrier most non-Japanese struggle with and ultimately use alot of time just figuring out the menus of, etc.

So as long as the game is TCP/IP, and one "could get help from someone who knows Japanese or something like that", the games we are talking about *IS* not much different than the games that already are revived - and thus not any harder to do, BUT may still be very different as we see even in-between first(or second)-party titles in USA as well. A great example being Outtrigger vs Alien Front Online (although some similarities exist). AM2 games share the same code base and thus is not hard to do - if they both have been released in the same region.

Sadly, most of the fighting games used that old switching system to match up players...

On the Saturn, there even was an online RPG game that was released pretty late in the Saturn's lifespan even in Japan where the Saturn didn't do as bad as many believe. That game (because of the lack of remembering the title - or worse trying to spell it out) was released on the Japanese Saturn (non-Net-Link) Modem HSS-0127 / Victor RN-M141, which also required these pre-paid cards, rendering them practically useless today compared to the American Net-Link - but hey, it did work though. That particular service, the SegaSaturn Networks is of course useless today, but Net-Link is not. This seem to be a bit of a "cultural difference" between the two regions as this was common even for the peripherals enabling previous systems to use the XBAND service for P2P gaming. This however was the first own proprietary system in Segas history, which was ultimately based on what later was very similar to the early-Dreamcast online service in Japan.

Where to focus imo;

* Aero Dancing I & I S D
* The GuruGuru Onsen series
* The Sakura Taisen Online series


Phone switching games can be brought back. Just a matter of programming pi software that can simulate landline service. Check out what the xband revival team is doing ;)


The SEGASaturn Network is not a phone simulation based on software nor hardware. It is a TCP/IP server system similar to KAGE at that time, but not ready as an official online-platform until the PS2-good-era.

Dwango and XBAND is two totally different systems, as is Dial Direct (Net-Link).


Someone correct me if I'm wrong:

Dwango steps

1. Calls into server, connect to a lobby with people.
2. Choose somsone to play with, then your modem disconnects and direct dials that opponent
3. After match modem disconnects and redials to dwango.

If this is the correct procedure Xband operates exactly the same way. Wikipedia actually references Xband as something similar.

User avatar
Shuouma
Developer
Posts: 363

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#27 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:33 am

Hi

I can just give a example, take the Capcom matching service, they work like this:

1. Calls into a "Dwango", they called it IWANGO in the assembler code.
2. Back in the days this was regular phone-tax per minut.
3. In the Lobby server you could chat and find opponent etc.
4. When you challenged a opponent, the DC phone numbers would be stored in a KDD database.
5. The player that challenged will hang up and call a KDD number, which was much more expensive.
6. The KDD server will check the database and dial the other player, so that the other player also payed the more expensive charge.
7. The assembler code has some kind of answer,answer next procedure which I assume is the KDD setup.
7. After the match it redials the "Dwango/IWANGO/Lobby" server.

Games like, propeller arena, bomberman, outtrigger utilized the Kage Network Architecture,
which is stated in the assembler code as well.

Oooga Booga and the Sega Sport games used a in-house VC solution.

Then we have games like Daytona and PowerSmash, that used segas own LobbyEngine,
forgot the name but is also in the assembler code. Pretty much all games have strings of what Onlinge engine they are using, so no need to speculate.

Have a nice day!

carnage
shadow
Posts: 10

Re: Power smash online revival chances ?

Post#28 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:52 am

Shuouma wrote:Hi

I can just give a example, take the Capcom matching service, they work like this:

1. Calls into a "Dwango", they called it IWANGO in the assembler code.
2. Back in the days this was regular phone-tax per minut.
3. In the Lobby server you could chat and find opponent etc.
4. When you challenged a opponent, the DC phone numbers would be stored in a KDD database.
5. The player that challenged will hang up and call a KDD number, which was much more expensive.
6. The KDD server will check the database and dial the other player, so that the other player also payed the more expensive charge.
7. The assembler code has some kind of answer,answer next procedure which I assume is the KDD setup.
7. After the match it redials the "Dwango/IWANGO/Lobby" server.

Games like, propeller arena, bomberman, outtrigger utilized the Kage Network Architecture,
which is stated in the assembler code as well.

Oooga Booga and the Sega Sport games used a in-house VC solution.

Then we have games like Daytona and PowerSmash, that used segas own LobbyEngine,
forgot the name but is also in the assembler code. Pretty much all games have strings of what Onlinge engine they are using, so no need to speculate.

Have a nice day!


Yes, this is 99% correct, except the switching-based system in Dwango (which was only a PART of what was going on at that time) was a piece of hardware not used for anything other than the switching service which at that time was part-hardware based. Those in doubt can look that up or even ask DreamcastTM.


There were several people from SoA and Sega.com that helped with the system in Japan because of the difference in infrastructure, and even a interview with "Alex" that states just what I am trying to say here. Among others that it was a system not suitable for use in Europe or USA, but Japan-only. You would have to dig a little bit deeper to actually get the facts collected and "assembled" for the big picture.

Jonas is correct in that most games will have its online system mentioned in the sources and therefore also in the deassembled code, but that is because they were obligated to do so by SEGA - by not using KAGE, one would have to document how it worked. The in-house VC solution was evolving everyday, and believe it or not, was used for a very long time after the Dreamcast. The Saturn System is a kind of pre-Kage system.

Jonas, the LobbyEngine you are talking about is just that - a lobby server keeping track of the players, storing them in a DB, before switching to a more KAGE-similar approach after the lobby-session is complete and players are ready. The games with the "LobbyEngine" is not any more special than others, but often have other things that makes them harder to work with. Daytona has the Save File one would get from the auth-server (Kage), Propeller Arena has encryption (but also uses the latest version of Kage which at that time was more or less complete. This also applies to Outtrigger except the encryption part. There are however no need to actually encrypt the data in PA to get it back online.)
(Tip: Think WWP except the DirectPlay part with P2P).

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