Clarifications/Discussion of the Server-Wide Rules Continued

[game_player_s]

For those who averted their eyes from the previous topic, it is highly recommended that you read both the topics created by BlueCrab titled "Sylverant PSO Server Global Rules" and "Clarifications/Discussion of the Server-Wide Rules" that one before posting here.

let it be said that at no point in the entirity were any of the vague rules ever truly clarified. Instead of clarifications BlueCrab has provided vague us with responses and ultimately excused himself, which was for the best since he failed to state anything worth reading... including his rules. Rather than appeal to requests for revisions, clarifications, and fruitful changes he then proceeded to go and post this on his twitter account:

Apparently I'm a Nazi-Communist Totalitarian for setting up democratically-defined PSO server rules that suggest everyone get along.

- Clarification of EP -
EP = Enhancement Pack
A modification patch for PSO developed by Aleron Ives that simplifies PSO.

While permitted as an acceptable game modification on Schthack and now Sylverant servers, it is not now nor has it ever been a legitimate play form of PSO. The EP is a modification patch that alters virtually all enemy stats and most item drop rates among other things to make the game easier. Think of it as a CodeBreaker/ActionReplay/GameShark cheat code that can never be tunred off once installed unless you perform a clean re-installation of the game.

Why are legit players mad that EP players aren't designated or even segregated on the servers?

If an EP player creates a team and an unsuspecting player who wishes to play legit joins that team the drop rates of the team are set as the drop rates ofthe EP player. If an EP player is involved in combat all non-EP players will experience enemy lag as the client-side stats for the EP player are calculatng for varied enemy weaknesses than of that a legit copy of PSO.

Just as an example, let's say an EP player and a non-EP player have both just engaged a Booma that has 100HP. A legit copy of PSO may have just calculated that the Booma was hit by the EP player for 80 damage, and the enemy at this point freezes and momentary lag is experienced. But, what has just happened is that for the EP player he see's that he's dealt the Booma 120 damage. This results in a Booma that, accordig to the non-EP copy of PSO, should still be alive and should still be able to take a hit and give experience points suddenly being reported as dead. Call it an unwelcomed system hiccup if you will.

In short, EP players unintentionally mess the game up for players who wish to enjoy playing the game legit. I don't have a problem with anyone playing using EP, but I personally play legit and would prefer to not be in teams with EP users in course of normal game play. Most legit players share in this sentiment.


'~=-Message to BlueCrab-=~'
A laughable claim to have been aiming at having a rule set based upon the government of France. You've missed the geographical mark by several miles east.

Frankly, BlueCrab, your attitude of unwillingness to even consider distinguishing EP players is pathetic. You've done far more harm than good by pushing your own agenda onto everyone that we should all just get along. We can get along just fine, and would so even better if we can tell without having to ask what our fellow players' preferentual play style is while were still in the lobby. You tried to throw my own words back at me accussing me of Nazi-ideals in labeling the EP players by making their names blue in the lobby. Wow, were you way off the mark. What you're presently enforcing is a state of communism by trying to pretend that all PSO V2 players and all PSO EP players are playing on equal terms. If changing the colors of a different version PSO players names to a color other than orange is such a serious issue to you, then does that mean you're going to patch the server to make all the V1 players names orange so they won't feel like they're being ostricized by V2 and EP players? So you'll stick up for the EP players, but not the V1 players. In the real world, that's called a double standard.

If you read this far down, I ask that you butt out and not post in this topic ever unless you are willing to intelligently discuss your intollerable Server-Wide Rules Set. You know what is being contested and why as the posts of everyone are very much still available for your reading pleasure in the prequel to this topic. I'm sick of your lazy attitude towards the rules you yourself wrote in what I can only at this point determine as being intentionally vague. If it's your intent to punish legit players for rejecting EP modified PSO as a legit form of play, then just come out and say so. Stop beating around the poverbial bush with rules that encourage the EP, and far worse, and flat out state your intentions to the enitrity of the PSO community.

The rules as they stand spell out one thing, legit players are not welcome on Sylverant.

[brourke228]

I don't think BlueCrab has a "lazy attitude" towards his rules. He probably just doesn't feel like dealing with you guys. He is trying to appease everyone because clearly it is his intent to have a broad user-base on sylverant. Unfortunately everyone has to bicker amongst one another and have their own opinions on how the server should be run. Obviously he can't please everyone. Honestly if it were me running the server I would have ignored every one of you because this is a joke. What is the problem here you don't like playing with people that aren't or you think are not legit? So find some people you like playing with on PSO and just play with them. That is what I do, its not that difficult. There is even a password system built into the game so you can keep others from joining. To be honest i think people complained less before the legit command even existed maybe we should go back to that.

[BlueCrab]

You want me to be a nazi totalitarian. Fine, I'll be one.

You don't like my rules, leave my server. Nothing I say changes anything you think, so if you really don't like them leave. Write your own damn server software for PSO, find a good server to host it, then we'll talk. Unless you're willing to put the time and effort into what I have done for PSO, honestly I don't give a shit what you have to say anymore. You do not listen to what I say, and frankly I'm tired of dealing with it. I do not appreciate being called a nazi, and I do not like your constant implication each time this topic comes up that I am. It is not fair, it is not right, and you're showing how little of a leg you have to stand on with your arguments when you resort to such labels. Such things are stupid and childish.

I've clarified the rules several times, and guess what, most of the population of the server doesn't have one problem with them.

You say I am pushing an agenda. Damn right I am. I'm pushing the agenda that everyone should just get along. You're pushing an agenda yourself. You're pushing the agenda that "so-called" legit players are better than everyone else. Ya know what, you're wrong. If it weren't for the "hackers" PSO would be dead long ago. None of the "legit" players stepped up, figured out how PSO works, and built a server, did they? Guess what, you cannot possibly be "truly legit" on PSO these days if you play online. Sega's server is long gone. If you want to follow Sega's rules for PSO then you should have stopped playing online years ago. Being that you haven't done that, I don't want to hear about being "truly legit" anymore from you.

Honestly, your insistence on continuing this fight makes me wonder whether I even want to work on this stuff and host a server anymore. Its clear from your posts that NOBODY appreciates the work and time that I put into Sylverant. Its clear that the world would just be a better place without it. That way, we could all be one step closer to going back to playing by Sega's rules, and not playing PSO at all anymore.

The bottom line is as follows. If you don't like the rules that were voted on unanimously by all of the ship administrators: don't play here. If you don't like the rules we've set up, write your own goddamn server and host it your own goddamn self. I'm tired of dealing with this shit.

I'll have you know, it takes a lot to piss me off. In fact, in all of my time on various forums, you're only the second person to ever piss me off to the point where I start cursing in a post on a forum in frustration. Congratulations.

Also, guess what. Since this whole argument broke out several weeks ago, I haven't worked one bit on Sylverant. I hope you guys are happy that you made me absolutely dread working on what was my favorite open source project to work on.

[everynewday84]

Its clear from your posts that NOBODY appreciates the work and time that I put into Sylverant.

The only thing tweeg has made clear is that he likes to create unnecessary tension and arguments. It's become evident that tweeg has spent more time arguing about non-issues than playing on the server. I've seen tweeg online once in the last six months.

That's right tweeg, I said this is a non issue. And, after reading your "clarification" it seems that you are in agreement. Seeing as how you note how easily a EP player should be detected (impossible to not notice the lag; impossible to not notice the changes in droprates) your suggestions are beyond worthless. Why label EP players when they are so easily detected? Why even bother with any of this, seeing as how you are not even playing on the server. And to add insult to injury, you are insulting BlueCrab long after the 'petition' has been closed. You think you are legit? Guess what, you aren't. Simply put, there is nothing legitimate about what you are doing here.

And BlueCrab, you should know your work is appreciated. Tweeg doesn't even play on your server. His sentiments are in no way representive of the PSO population.

[Neoblast]

Another pointless topic about an already discussed subject.

You should all be grateful BlueCrab made an open source server all by himself, and believe me it is a very hard and time consuming work, not to mention hours of trials and documentation, fixing, and a very long etcetera

Bothering him with these kind of things renders the updates on the server higly unlikely, there is no need for this.

This kind of drama made schthack not to update the public version of his server
( and to this date he hasn't ).

The legit check should be enough for most type of hacks, illegal stats and items.
The server rules give YOU players the freedom to choose. If you don't trust someone then don't play with them, plain and simple.

As Blue himself says there is no 100% legit anymore since sega's server are long gone, but you should show some respect.

Sylverant just didn't pop up, it has taken countless hours of work.

NO MORE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE RULES IS ALLOWED FROM NOW ON, and won't be in a long while after everything is calmed again.

TOPIC LOCKED

[Aleron Ives]

Tweeg, before you go making baseless accusations, you should learn how the things you're disparaging actually work. While I don't want to keep reviving this subject, Neoblast has been kind enough to temporarily unlock this topic so I can correct your misinformation.

The EP is a modification patch that alters virtually all enemy stats and most item drop rates among other things to make the game easier.

The enemy stats in the EP are harder than the regular game, not easier. Do not misrepresent Ludicrous mode as something that people use to let them kill enemies faster, when the exact opposite is the case. If you're referring to enemy resistances in Ludicrous mode being lower than those in Ultimate so that Forces can deal damage with Techniques, that is balanced out by enemy HP being twice as high as it is in Ultimate mode to prevent Techniques from killing enemies in too few hits as a result of the higher damage. Considering that Ludicrous Bartles have similar physical stats to Ultimate Arlans, it is disingenuous to insinuate that higher Technique damage equates to Ludicrous mode being universally easier than Ultimate, when enemy stats are comprised of more than one set of attributes.

Think of it as a CodeBreaker/ActionReplay/GameShark cheat code that can never be tunred off once installed unless you perform a clean re-installation of the game.

Reinstallation of the entire game is not necessary to remove the EP, and the original files are included in the download for people who want to remove it. Don't insinuate that the EP is insidious when its function and implementation are easy to understand and reverse if desired.

If an EP player is involved in combat all non-EP players will experience enemy lag as the client-side stats for the EP player are calculatng for varied enemy weaknesses than of that a legit copy of PSO.

There is no such thing as "enemy lag", since enemies are controlled locally.

Just as an example, let's say an EP player and a non-EP player have both just engaged a Booma that has 100HP. A legit copy of PSO may have just calculated that the Booma was hit by the EP player for 80 damage, and the enemy at this point freezes and momentary lag is experienced. But, what has just happened is that for the EP player he see's that he's dealt the Booma 120 damage. This results in a Booma that, accordig to the non-EP copy of PSO, should still be alive and should still be able to take a hit and give experience points suddenly being reported as dead. Call it an unwelcomed system hiccup if you will.

This is wrong. PSO clients transmit the amount of damage they deal to other players in the team. Local enemy statistics are only used to generate the damage values that are seen on the screen; they do not necessarily correspond to how much damage was actually dealt. Since weapon ATP is variable, the damage other players appear to deal is not exactly the amount of damage they actually dealt.

As for your erroneous example, the way it actually works is that if an EP player's Bartle has 200 HP while a non-EP player's Bartle has only 100 HP, the non-EP player will see the EP player dealing more damage than a Bartle with 100 HP could withstand; however, kill packets can only be transmitted locally, meaning the Bartle will only die if someone hits it when that player's client thinks the Bartle's HP is 0. Therefore, the Bartle doesn't die for the non-EP player until one of two things happens. Either:

1. The EP player keeps hitting the Bartle until its 200 HP is exhausted, after which the EP player will send a kill packet that causes the Bartle to die for everyone.
2. The non-EP player hits the Bartle after the EP player has done >= 100 damage to it. If this happens, the non-EP player's client will compare the damage that the Bartle has received with the Bartle's non-EP HP value of 100, notice that the Bartle's HP has reached 0, and subsequently send the kill packet to everyone. This even happens if the non-EP player's attack does 0 damage, which allows non-EP players to kill the Bartle with an attack like Rabarta that does 0 damage to Bartles. Since the EP player has already done over 100 damage to the Bartle, it would have died under the old stats already anyway, so the fact that it dies after receiving a 0-damage attack doesn't matter.

As such, each of your assertions is wrong:

1. Enemies don't "freeze" or "lag" when they get attacked in a EP/non-EP team.
2. The numbers that you see on the screen for other players don't matter. The damage that the player deals locally is what determines how much HP the enemy loses, so just because a non-EP user sees an EP user doing attacks that deal 500 damage doesn't mean the EP user is actually dealing 500 damage. That's how much damage the EP user would be dealing if his Bartle had the same DFP as an Ultimate Bartle. Since a Ludicrous Bartle has higher DFP than an Ultimate Bartle does, the EP player is actually doing less than 500 damage with each hit.
3. In a EP/non-EP team, the EP user is the one who will see his enemies die early, not the non-EP user as you incorrectly stated. Since non-EP users still have the weaker enemies that are easier to kill, they will be able to expend the HP of their enemies easily and cause the stronger enemies for the EP user to die prematurely. Since the EP user isn't making the killing blow to those enemies, he will subsequently receive the partial 80% EXP reward that goes to people who don't land the final attack on an enemy. The results of this are that that the EP player will level more slowly, since he isn't getting full EXP from his enemies, and he may be a bit bored, because his enemies are dying quickly the way they do in Ultimate mode (instead of putting up more of a fight the way they do when everyone is playing Ludicrous mode).

Please stop trying to "educate" people on things you don't understand. While a few bugs have been found between EP and non-EP players, I did many tests to ensure that EP and non-EP players could play together without any serious problems. Remember that there are also bugs that occur between DC and PC players, yet they are still allowed to play together, too. Spreading discord between players is bad enough, but it's even worse to do it based on false information.