The unreleased SEGA 'Saturn 2' and The Dreamcast Story

[HerzogZwei1989]

I think it would of certainly changed the gaming landscape had Sega and LMC been able to shrink the R3D tech down enough for it to be included in a game console, it would seem that it was mainly the delays with the Model 3 and LMC's reluctance to get involved in the mainstream consumer market that killed the possibility off.

I agree.

I think it would transformed & changed the gaming landscape had Sega selected LMC R3D tech to be the GPU of at least one console. Sega should have never launched the 32X. They would have been better served to upgrade the SegaCD with a better color and sprite handling capabilities. Sega would then do better by making Sega CD the *only* upgrade to the Genesis, and not try to bring that console into the 32-bit realm. Then, with Saturn, Sega would wait until 1996 to launch it, centered around a PPC603 CPU and LMC R3D/100 GPU.

It would've streamlined the development process and allowed Saturn to run upgraded Model 2 ports and downscaled Model 3 games. Now before people jump down my throat and tell me that Model 2 was too expensive to be put in a console, I would agree, but tell them at the same time R3D/100 was not Model 2 (or Model 3).

Glad you enjoyed the M2 scans btw, yeah I noticed that the 3DO company kept the rights to future generations of the technology, it would seem to me that they wanted to transform the company from trying to create a standard system to just providing the hardware for game console, a contract gaming hardware design company if you like.

Really did enjoy them, thanks again. I don't know much about 3DO but it seems to me that's exactly what they were trying to do.

However 3DO had already lost a lot of money and sold off the hardware systems side of the company to Samsung, I think Samsung had plans to make a PC card version of the MX chipset, but got cold feet and then decided to sell off the company.

I didn't know Samsung had a PC card based on the MX chipset. I do remember that Cirrus Logic had a card based on M2. It went unreleased.

I checked out those Q&As from NG btw, the answers they provided were actually pretty accurate as far as the development system and the hardware performance from the Katana/Dreamcast system. I've been scanning over a few of the other archived versions of NG too now, thanks for the links.

Next Generation was always at least fairly accurate, much better than other publications. I wish we all had access to scans of the entire archive of NG. It's a shame what happened with Retromags.com, they had a huge archive of magazine scans but the uploads got axed for whatever reason, I haven't looked into why.

[MrSega]

Hey Snarky, remember that "Demon Tribe" Wii U rumor? It turned out to be FALSE.

Demon Tribe has been confirmed as an iOS exclusive by Sega Networks. Its not for any game platform. The source code claim turned out to be bogus.

[everynewday84]

Glad my re uploads of pictures came in handy.

The sad thing is that SEGA/CSK wasted $2 Billion on establishing GameWorks in 1996-1997. Which could have been used to keep Dreamcast going until 2005.

Holy shit god damn it. I wish you would stop all of this.

The dreamcast was not going to make sega any money. I'm glad sega invested in gameworks

[Comrade Snarky]

Hey Snarky, remember that "Demon Tribe" Wii U rumor? It turned out to be FALSE.

Demon Tribe has been confirmed as an iOS exclusive by Sega Networks. Its not for any game platform. The source code claim turned out to be bogus.

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

First, glad my reups came in handy, thank you for thanking me earlier. Glad I saved them when I did, because post 1 links just died recently.

Second, there is A LOT of info in this thread and I'm confused.

There was supposed to be Pano 3DO or 3do-like chips in Saturn 2 from the giant weapon company ? The chips/tech was labeled Real 3D ?

Saturn was a failure outside Japan and a Saturn 2 in USA would have been more straws on Segas fans back (meaning they wouldn't have been too hype on DC ?) but it's interesting.

Would the Saturn 2 be 64 bit with 3d graphics (I don't think it said in article). So when was this supposed to be released a year after Saturn and a year before DC LOL ?

The DC was supposed to be n64 tech (or vice versa) or something ?

Some of Saturn 2 tech was used for DC ?

NEC and Sega built the DC board ? It's called model 3 ?

I'm no tech person so bare with me.

[HerzogZwei1989]

First, glad my reups came in handy, thank you for thanking me earlier. Glad I saved them when I did, because post 1 links just died recently.

Thank you again for reuploading them.

Second, there is A LOT of info in this thread and I'm confused.

Okay I'll try my best to help.

There was supposed to be Pano 3DO or 3do-like chips in Saturn 2 from the giant weapon company ? The chips/tech was labeled Real 3D ?

At one point Sega was in negotiation with 3DO and/or Panasonic to use the 2nd generation 3DO (called M2) chipset in a Sega console or upgrade for Saturn. This had nothing to do with Lockheed Martin's Real3D chip/chipset, that would've been an entirely different deal and different technology.

Saturn was a failure outside Japan and a Saturn 2 in USA would have been more straws on Segas fans back (meaning they wouldn't have been too hype on DC ?) but it's interesting.

The Saturn was a failure outside of Japan, indeed. Lets just pretend Saturn never launched anywhere in the world. Lets say the proposed Saturn 2 technology with Lockheed Martin Real3D technology had launched in 1996 instead, as the Saturn, without being called Saturn 2. That could've been a huge success. Maybe not as successful as the massively successful PlayStation, but more than the N64. A 64-bit Saturn with a PowerPC CPU and Lockheed Martin Real3D GPU would've been easy to develop games for, and had a great deal of power. Not Model 3 arcade or Dreamcast levels of power, but enough to beat PS1, N64, 3DO M2 and even PC 3D cards like 3DFX Voodoo Graphics.

Would the Saturn 2 be 64 bit with 3d graphics (I don't think it said in article). So when was this supposed to be released a year after Saturn and a year before DC LOL ?

Yeah Saturn 2 would've been 64-bit since the PowerPC 603 CPU was 64-bit. However bits didn't even matter then. More importantly would've been the GPU. The Real3D/100 was capable of 750,000 textured polygons with lighting and all effects on. Compare that to the N64 which can only do 160,000 textured and lit polygons with all effects on. Or the PS1 which can only do 180,000 textured, lit and gouraud shaded polygons without comparable effects like filtering or anti-aliasing. Keep in mind that PS1 could do 360,000 polygons, but those would only be flat-shaded, without textures.

The DC was supposed to be n64 tech (or vice versa) or something ?

Nope. Dreamcast was totally new tech, based around a Hitachi SH-4 CPU and 2nd generation custom Videologic PowerVR graphics chip. N64 was based on older tech from Silicon Graphics.

Some of Saturn 2 tech was used for DC ?

That's a tricky question. To keep it simple, I should say. no not really.

NEC and Sega built the DC board ? It's called model 3 ?

NEC manufactured the Videologic *designed* PowerVR2DC graphics chip in Dreamcast of 1998/1999. This has nothing to do with the Sega Model 3 arcade board of 1996.

I'm no tech person so bare with me.

No problem, I hope I've answered some of your questions. Perhaps stu can do a better job than I.

[#1phoenixsunsfan]

Thank you HerzogZwei1989 for answering, I learned a lot, appreciated.

[Raen]

Wikipedia's entry on the Sega Dreamcast & 3dfx

In 1997, 3Dfx was working with entertainment company Sega to develop a new video game console hardware platform. Sega solicited two competing designs: a unit code-named "Katana", developed in Japan using NEC and Imagination Technologies (then VideoLogic) technology, and "Blackbelt", a system designed in the United States using 3Dfx technology.[citation needed]

However on July 22, 1997, Sega announced that it was terminating the development contract,[citation needed] and that Sega chose to use NEC's PowerVR chipset for its game console. Sega told 3Dfx it had not terminated the contract because of the chipset performance and gave no indication as to why it decided to terminate the contract.

"We have requested that Sega return our confidential information and technology and they have failed to honor that request for one month now," said Ms. Onopchenko.

"We believe there is a risk because Sega has no sign of returning our trade secrets and now is working with a competitor in NEC."

3Dfx said Sega has still not given a reason as to why it terminated the contract or why it chose NEC's accelerator chipset over 3Dfx's.

According to Dale Ford, senior analyst at Dataquest, a market research firm based in San Jose, California, a number of factors could have influenced Sega's decision to move to NEC, including NEC's proven track record of supplying chipsets for the Nintendo 64 and the demonstrated ability to be able to handle a major influx of capacity if the company decided to ramp up production on a moment's notice.

"This is a highly competitive market with price wars happening all the time and it would appear that after evaluating a number of choices—and the ramifications each choice brings—Sega went with a decision that it thought was best for the company's longevity," said Mr. Ford.

"Sega has to make a significant move to stay competitive and they need to make it soon. Now whether this move is to roll out another home console platform or move strictly to the PC gaming space is unknown."

Sega quickly quashed 3Dfx's "Blackbelt" and used the NEC-based "Katana" as the model for the product that would be marketed and sold as the Dreamcast. 3Dfx sued Sega for breach of contract, accusing Sega of starting the deal in bad faith in order to take 3Dfx technology. The case was settled out of court

[Wombat]

In response to above msg:

Interesting though that years later a fully working arcade build of 'NFL Blitz '99' surfaced, which ran on a regular stock Dreamcast: http://www.segagagadomain.com/movie-pag ... litz99.htm

This rough port of the 'Seattle Hardware'-arcade version to Dreamcast is remarkable. Why? Because the 'Seattle Hardware' uses 3DFX... and this internal Dreamcast build still shows the 3DFX logo.... interesting stuff for sure

[Raen]

I had no idea of that NFL Blitz '99 version. I read that it was never released, dumped or ripped, but is that still true? Hasn't a backup emerge till this day?